From acolyte at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Fri Mar 1 09:01:06 2002 From: acolyte at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Andrew Bailey) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:21 2004 Subject: [tech] morwong Message-ID: <20020301090106.A23478@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Hi, It seems that morwong is failing to allow me to login. I get mussel% ssh morwong acolyte@morwong's password: Too many users logged on already. Try again later. Connection to morwong closed. Is this some kind of license issue? Andrew. -- "The hot dog eating contest is not only a beautiful display of athleticism, it is a fundamental way for citizens of all nations to display patriotism," - Wayne Norbitz From adrian at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Fri Mar 1 09:20:46 2002 From: adrian at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Adrian Chadd) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:24 2004 Subject: [tech] morwong In-Reply-To: <20020301090106.A23478@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> References: <20020301090106.A23478@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <20020301092046.A397099@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> On Fri, Mar 01, 2002, Andrew Bailey wrote: > Hi, > > It seems that morwong is failing to allow me to login. > > I get > > mussel% ssh morwong > acolyte@morwong's password: > Too many users logged on already. > Try again later. > Connection to morwong closed. > > Is this some kind of license issue? Yup. Mustang called UCC about it, trs80 fixed it. Ta james :) adrian From nick at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Fri Mar 1 09:32:19 2002 From: nick at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Nick Bannon) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:24 2004 Subject: [tech] morwong In-Reply-To: <20020301092046.A397099@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> References: <20020301090106.A23478@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020301092046.A397099@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <20020301093219.V286382@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> On Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 09:20:46AM +0800, Adrian Chadd wrote: > Yup. Mustang called UCC about it, trs80 fixed it. > > > Ta james :) Hmmm... I think I fixed it too. ::-) /home/wheel/etc/digital.cslg/old20020301 contains before/after tar file dumps of the license database as well as before/after snapshots of "lmf list". There are some side-effects - many of the licenses that were "active unlimited" are now terminated. But - we can at least log in and try to fix them when we figure out what's affected. ::-) Nick. -- Nick Bannon | "I made this letter longer than usual because nick-sig@rcpt.to | I lack the time to make it shorter." - Pascal From adrian at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Sun Mar 3 21:53:39 2002 From: adrian at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Adrian Chadd) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:24 2004 Subject: [tech] scope has changed hands .. Message-ID: <20020303215339.D397099@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> .. to matt@ucc . I'll find/update the theft book tomorrow. Adrian From alwynn-l at tartarus.uwa.edu.au Mon Mar 4 00:17:23 2002 From: alwynn-l at tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Alwyn Nixon-Lloyd) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:24 2004 Subject: [tech] yum-cha 10/100 switches Message-ID: <20020303161723.GC26576@tartarus.uwa.edu.au> hello... i was just wondering whether anyone has tried those $100 dollar switches that are advertised in the west by all th e computer stores... What are they like? dodgeeee?? ok? resonable? i was thinking of getting one and removing the network cards from my P-75 and giving it a nice retirment.... -- Alwyn Nixon-Lloyd TIMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! go figure Western Australia From grahame at azale.net Mon Mar 4 00:44:25 2002 From: grahame at azale.net (Grahame Bowland) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:25 2004 Subject: [tech] yum-cha 10/100 switches In-Reply-To: <20020303161723.GC26576@tartarus.uwa.edu.au> References: <20020303161723.GC26576@tartarus.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <20020303164425.GB15398@sigaba> On Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 12:17:23AM +0800, Alwyn Nixon-Lloyd wrote: > hello... > i was just wondering whether anyone has tried those $100 dollar switches that are advertised in the west by all th e computer stores... > > What are they like? dodgeeee?? ok? resonable? > > i was thinking of getting one and removing the network cards from my P-75 and giving it a nice retirment.... What brand are they? Do they do ethernet? ;) -- Grahame Bowland From devenish at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Mon Mar 4 16:05:45 2002 From: devenish at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (James Devenish) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:25 2004 Subject: [tech] Re: [ucc] Mac ?BIOS? password In-Reply-To: References: <20020304152931.A35994@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <20020304160545.A68157@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> [CC to tech] On Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 03:45:08PM +0800, Paul Day wrote: > Under MacOS9 there was a pre-boot password. From what I understand (never > touched this feature myself, just going by one of the mac guys here in the > office), it asks for the password as soon as the machine tries to access > the HDD. The only way of getting rid of that password is a format. If it's the HDD driver password that was provided with laptop installations of Mac OS for quite a number of years (before Mac OS 9) then the data are not encrypted and you can theoretically recover the data. On Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 03:29:31PM +0800, Peter Wilsmore wrote: > Ppl, > Someone has sent me an email regarding a problem they are having with > their G3 Mac Powerbook. On bootup it seems to be asking for a password. > Does anyone know of anyway of setting a pre-boot password on a Mac laptop > and how you would disable it? If it's a very plain looking with a picture of a lock-strapped laptop and possibly a "Hint" then it is probably Apple's driver password. Apple will of course tell you that you can take your computer to an Apple Authorised Service Provider who *will* be able to bypass the security (for a fee). Someone on tech might be able to help out with that. Also, perhaps something like FWB's Hard Disk Toolkit might be able to install itself over the Apple driver. On Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 03:43:21PM +0800, Andrew McColl wrote: > Depending on what evil software company thought this particular one up you Hmm. From maset at ii.net Fri Mar 8 18:44:02 2002 From: maset at ii.net (Anil Sharma) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:25 2004 Subject: [tech] is this possible? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020308183952.03f3ba58@mail.ii.net> Would it be possible to a term (say on the big shelves) to display messages that can be posted from the website or emailed? Preferably it would beep when a new message arrives (of course this may get annoying if popular, so a switch to turn this off would be good). An ASCII art message on a dumb term might do the trick, or not. Cheers, Maset. From adrian at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Fri Mar 8 21:06:49 2002 From: adrian at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Adrian Chadd) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:25 2004 Subject: [tech] is this possible? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020308183952.03f3ba58@mail.ii.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020308183952.03f3ba58@mail.ii.net> Message-ID: <20020308210648.B79218@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> On Fri, Mar 08, 2002, Anil Sharma wrote: > Would it be possible to a term (say on the big shelves) to display messages > that can be posted from the website or emailed? Preferably it would beep > when a new message arrives (of course this may get annoying if popular, so > a switch to turn this off would be good). An ASCII art message on a dumb > term might do the trick, or not. > Yeah. How big a screen do you want? Adrian From trs80 at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Fri Mar 8 21:45:16 2002 From: trs80 at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (James Andrewartha) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:25 2004 Subject: [tech] hydra Message-ID: After some messing about with hydra tonight (devfs *mutter* recompile *mutter* 2.4.17 doesn't detect the PCI bus *mutter* recompile) there's appletalk and iptables support again. I've set up ssh.ucc.asn.au, telnet.ucc.asn.au and flame-tunnel.ucc.asn.au again. Mark is going to work on making netatalk happy over the weekend. -- # TRS-80 trs80(a)ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au #/ "Otherwise Bub here will do \ # UCC Treasurer http://trs80.ucc.asn.au/ #| what squirrels do best | [ "There's nobody getting rich writing ]| -- Collect and hide your | [ software that I know of" -- Bill Gates, 1980 ]\ nuts." -- Acid Reflux #231 / From adrian at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Fri Mar 8 22:11:21 2002 From: adrian at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Adrian Chadd) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:26 2004 Subject: [tech] hydra In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020308221121.C79218@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> On Fri, Mar 08, 2002, James Andrewartha wrote: > After some messing about with hydra tonight (devfs *mutter* recompile > *mutter* 2.4.17 doesn't detect the PCI bus *mutter* recompile) there's > appletalk and iptables support again. I've set up ssh.ucc.asn.au, > telnet.ucc.asn.au and flame-tunnel.ucc.asn.au again. Mark is going to work > on making netatalk happy over the weekend. > > Good work! :) Adrian From maset at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Fri Mar 8 21:39:49 2002 From: maset at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Anil Sharma) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:26 2004 Subject: [tech] is this possible? In-Reply-To: <20020308210648.B79218@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020308183952.03f3ba58@mail.ii.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020308183952.03f3ba58@mail.ii.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020308213844.03f1c770@pop.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> At 09:06 PM 8/03/2002 +0800, you wrote: >On Fri, Mar 08, 2002, Anil Sharma wrote: > > Would it be possible to a term (say on the big shelves) to display > messages > > that can be posted from the website or emailed? Preferably it would beep > > when a new message arrives (of course this may get annoying if popular, so > > a switch to turn this off would be good). An ASCII art message on a dumb > > term might do the trick, or not. > > > >Yeah. How big a screen do you want? A dumbterm doing ascii art should suffice. A big plasma screen would be nicer... but then again, so would having a Cray 3 as our set of couches. Cheers, Maset. From bers at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Sat Mar 9 01:08:57 2002 From: bers at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Nick Rohrlach) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:26 2004 Subject: [tech] is this possible? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020308213844.03f1c770@pop.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Mar 2002, Anil Sharma wrote: > A dumbterm doing ascii art should suffice. A big plasma screen would be > nicer... but then again, so would having a Cray 3 as our set of couches. What on earth is this for, just OOI? -- -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ Nick "bers" Rohrlach [NRR] bers@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- From maset at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Sat Mar 9 10:36:36 2002 From: maset at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Anil Sharma) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:26 2004 Subject: [tech] is this possible? In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020308213844.03f1c770@pop.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020309103538.03f44188@pop.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Well we can have people peering into the clubroom through the webcams, why not let them have some sort of instant communication with us? Complete the fishbowl experience. At 01:08 AM 9/03/2002 +0800, Nick Rohrlach wrote: >On Fri, 8 Mar 2002, Anil Sharma wrote: > > A dumbterm doing ascii art should suffice. A big plasma screen would be > > nicer... but then again, so would having a Cray 3 as our set of couches. > >What on earth is this for, just OOI? > >-- >-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ > Nick "bers" Rohrlach [NRR] > bers@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au >_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- From adrian at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Mon Mar 11 13:25:38 2002 From: adrian at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Adrian Chadd) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:26 2004 Subject: [tech] new scarlet disk Message-ID: <20020311132538.D79218@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> I have a 2gb barracuda sitting next to scarlet. I'd like that to become the next root disk for the thing. Who is up for an IRIX install fest? I can bring the media .. :) Adrian From dayta at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Mon Mar 11 14:15:11 2002 From: dayta at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Leighton Haynes) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:27 2004 Subject: [tech] new scarlet disk In-Reply-To: <20020311132538.D79218@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> References: <20020311132538.D79218@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <20020311141511.H65582@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> On Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 01:25:38PM +0800, Adrian Chadd wrote: > > I have a 2gb barracuda sitting next to scarlet. I'd like that to > become the next root disk for the thing. > > Who is up for an IRIX install fest? I can bring the media .. :) Hmm.. IRIX. Fest. Festy. Ahh.. it all makes sense ;) IRIX Festy. It's almost as bad as Linux! Leighton... -- #0421 113 305 - dayta@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au How do you expect?/I will know what to do./When all I know. Is what you tell me to. - Linkin Park/By Myself From maset at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Mon Mar 11 18:03:48 2002 From: maset at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Anil Sharma ) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:27 2004 Subject: [tech] new scarlet disk In-Reply-To: <20020311141511.H65582@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: i On Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 01:25:38PM +0800, Adrian Chadd wrote: > > > > I have a 2gb barracuda sitting next to scarlet. I'd like that to > > become the next root disk for the thing. > > > > Who is up for an IRIX install fest? I can bring the media .. :) > > Hmm.. IRIX. Fest. Festy. Ahh.. it all makes sense ;) IRIX Festy. > It's almost as bad as Linux! > > Leighton... Hey! Erwin didn't crash for like a week after Cameron started a fork bomb on it. > > -- > > #0421 113 305 - dayta@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au > How do you expect?/I will know what to do./When all I know. > Is what you tell me to. - Linkin Park/By Myself > Maset the Grandiose. ------------------------------------------------- Without suffering, how can one appreciate happiness? And how would we mark the depths of our sorrow, without the light of hope? From grahame at azale.net Mon Mar 11 19:41:26 2002 From: grahame at azale.net (Grahame Bowland) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:27 2004 Subject: [tech] new scarlet disk In-Reply-To: References: <20020311141511.H65582@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <20020311114126.GA4336@sigaba> On Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 06:03:48PM +0800, Anil Sharma wrote: > i > > On Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 01:25:38PM +0800, Adrian Chadd wrote: > > > > > > I have a 2gb barracuda sitting next to scarlet. I'd like that to > > > become the next root disk for the thing. > > > > > > Who is up for an IRIX install fest? I can bring the media .. :) > > > > Hmm.. IRIX. Fest. Festy. Ahh.. it all makes sense ;) IRIX Festy. > > It's almost as bad as Linux! > > > > Leighton... > > Hey! Erwin didn't crash for like a week after Cameron started a fork bomb > on it. That is because his fork bomb was crap. Ask luyer for his 2 line asm fork bomb ;) -- Grahame Bowland From andrew at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Thu Mar 14 10:24:49 2002 From: andrew at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Andrew Williams) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:27 2004 Subject: [tech] HD swap Message-ID: <200203140224.g2E2Onl08583@linseed.longtable.org> I'm trying to resurrect a computer for my brother, and need an IDE drive. It's an old P150, and it seems pointless buying a new drive, since I doubt the BIOS will handle anything large. Does UCC (or anyone else) want a 4Gb SCSI drive (IBM DCAS-34330, 50-pin, 97 vintage) in exchange for a similar IDE drive? Andrew From chengt02 at tartarus.uwa.edu.au Thu Mar 14 21:05:53 2002 From: chengt02 at tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Tiang Cheng) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:27 2004 Subject: [tech] home LAN + ADSL Message-ID: <1016111153.3c90a03138543@secure.uwa.edu.au> i'm setting up a LAN at home for 6 computers, and hooking them up to the net thru iinet's ADSL. I'm needing a 8 port hub/switch (100mbit), Cat 5 cables, and network cards. also need an ide harddrive for my server. any recommendations on specific hardware brands. (no-one seems to like D-link...but it's the only system i'm familiar with.). anyone got spares they want to get rid off? will pay if need to. also, am wondering if there's going to be any issues running a linux server, and Win98/XP/2k pcs trying to network them together. main issue is internet access, although Lan gaming is next on the requirements list. :O). is there goign to be any problems getting win98 pcs talking to win2k pcs? it's pretty much going to be all the pcs hooked into the lan, and the server is used as a gateway to the internet. any ideas on what type of lan to use? UCC seems to have much experience with networking, hope i get some help? Tiang From grahame at azale.net Tue Mar 19 00:11:09 2002 From: grahame at azale.net (Grahame Bowland) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:28 2004 Subject: [tech] QNX Message-ID: <20020318161109.GB17904@sigaba> There is an old pentium box donated to UCC at UCS, which someone (can't remember who) thought was too heavy to carry back. I might wack QNX on it tommorow night and stick it on the UCC network. Would anyone be offended if I did this? Ought to be easy to install ssh on the thing. I have it installed on my desktop at home, it's very pretty visually and seems ok as a programming environment. Does the MOSIX cluster still exist in a form where we could install QNX? Have fun, Grahame -- Grahame Bowland From trs80 at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Tue Mar 19 00:45:03 2002 From: trs80 at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (James Andrewartha) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:28 2004 Subject: [tech] Machine room power Message-ID: Nick B, James B, Mark and myself, with assistance from Trent Lloyd, Chas and Chris Grubb have converted the machine room over the new power circuit. The transition went fairly smoothly, with mooneye getting 100meg of ram total (once it decided to see the hdd) and dagon getting a box that has a working keyboard/vga output. The power distribution unit and the long yellow cables are no more (and a good thing too - one of them was ... self-adjusted to handle high current (read socket fused to the plug)). -- # TRS-80 trs80(a)ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au #/ "Otherwise Bub here will do \ # UCC Treasurer http://trs80.ucc.asn.au/ #| what squirrels do best | [ "There's nobody getting rich writing ]| -- Collect and hide your | [ software that I know of" -- Bill Gates, 1980 ]\ nuts." -- Acid Reflux #231 / From matt at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Tue Mar 19 01:05:03 2002 From: matt at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Matt Johnston) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:28 2004 Subject: [tech] QNX In-Reply-To: <20020318161109.GB17904@sigaba> References: <20020318161109.GB17904@sigaba> Message-ID: <20020319010503.A2034@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> On Tue, Mar 19, 2002 at 12:11:09AM +0800, Grahame Bowland wrote: > I have it installed on my desktop at home, it's very pretty > visually and seems ok as a programming environment. Does the > MOSIX cluster still exist in a form where we could install > QNX? The cluster's still sitting in the rack, should be bootable if you wrangle a few cables. Just wondering, does QNX have anything in particular which makes it particularly of interest for clustering etc? Matt From grahame at azale.net Tue Mar 19 01:10:58 2002 From: grahame at azale.net (Grahame Bowland) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:28 2004 Subject: [tech] QNX In-Reply-To: <20020319010503.A2034@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> References: <20020318161109.GB17904@sigaba> <20020319010503.A2034@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <20020318171058.GA18509@sigaba> On Tue, Mar 19, 2002 at 01:05:03AM +0800, Matt Johnston wrote: > On Tue, Mar 19, 2002 at 12:11:09AM +0800, Grahame Bowland wrote: > > I have it installed on my desktop at home, it's very pretty > > visually and seems ok as a programming environment. Does the > > MOSIX cluster still exist in a form where we could install > > QNX? > > The cluster's still sitting in the rack, should be bootable if you wrangle a > few cables. Just wondering, does QNX have anything in particular which makes > it particularly of interest for clustering etc? Transparent clustering done right, eg. filedescriptors are unique across the cluster, processes can move across machines, yadayada -- Grahame Bowland From fryers at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Tue Mar 19 05:11:33 2002 From: fryers at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Simon Fryer) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:28 2004 Subject: [tech] Machine room power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020319051132.A2687@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Bingle > A while ago James Andrewartha tapped: > Nick B, James B, Mark and myself, with assistance from Trent Lloyd, Chas > and Chris Grubb have converted the machine room over the new power > circuit. Good Work. > The transition went fairly smoothly, with mooneye getting 100meg > of ram total (once it decided to see the hdd) and dagon getting a box that > has a working keyboard/vga output. The power distribution unit and the > long yellow cables are no more (and a good thing too - one of them was ... > self-adjusted to handle high current (read socket fused to the plug)). Yes, I knew about the socket fused problem. It was not running too hot! :) Are you sure that removing the power distribution unit was a good think(tm)? I seem to recall machines plugged into it survive some pretty unpleasent spikes that caused robooting of PC's not plugged into it. AFAIK all that it needed was to replace the fans and it should have been happy again. My 1p. :) See Ya Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From maset at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Tue Mar 19 07:27:10 2002 From: maset at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Anil Sharma) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:29 2004 Subject: [tech] Machine room power In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020319072648.042a07d0@pop.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Well done guys From recorders at start.com.au Wed Mar 20 08:35:42 2002 From: recorders at start.com.au (ker les) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:29 2004 Subject: [tech] OL' MAC LC 630 Message-ID: Any one have a working or semi working ol' mac lc630 ?? *** Kern *** __________________________________________________________________ Get your free Australian email account at http://www.start.com.au From dave at difference.com.au Wed Mar 20 14:02:17 2002 From: dave at difference.com.au (David Cake) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:29 2004 Subject: [tech] OL' MAC LC 630 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:35 AM +1000 20/3/02, ker les scribbled: >Any one have a working or semi working ol' mac lc630 ?? What for? The guild has both working and semi-working ones. Cheers David From mustang at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Wed Mar 20 19:10:58 2002 From: mustang at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (David Manchester) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:29 2004 Subject: [tech] OL' MAC LC 630 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020320191058.A8216@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> On Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 10:35:42AM +1000, ker les wrote: > Any one have a working or semi working ol' mac lc630 ?? Hi, Could you please desist in mailing this alias? Tech@ucc is for UCC-related matters. Try a for-sale Usenet group, or e-bay. Thank you, D. -- " I don't get mad.... I get stabby. " - William "Fat Tony" Williams. From elixxir at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Sat Mar 23 18:06:26 2002 From: elixxir at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Elixxir) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:29 2004 Subject: [tech] Burner vs. Diablo 2 (Re: [ucc] AGM Minutes) Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Mar 2002, Pink Floyd wrote: > On Fri, 22 Mar 2002, Matt Johnston wrote: > > > > > > > > VP report > > Diablo 2 and other gaming was kind of irritating > > Yay to that - diablo 2 takes up a productive PC that could be running zmud > *snip* Yeah...I mean I have nothing against the guys that play Diablo 2 (great game) but I have one quibble. The burner's on the Windoze box :-| Now, whenever someone wants to burn something they can't...as both burning and Diablo 2 take a heck of a lot of time. Can I suggest that a dedicated box be set up for the burner[1] and call it the "Burning only box" or simmilar (ie. people that want to burn have priority over others). A low end pentium should suffice and when set up with linux would be great :) (although linux doesn't run Nero...which is a minus I can live with) I'm willing to help set this up if anyone agrees (I know this subject is best brought up in a meeting but what the heck...) Cheers, Paul [1] if this is done, a new burner is a must (2x is a bit antiquated.. :P ) From maset at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Sat Mar 23 18:19:06 2002 From: maset at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Anil Sharma) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:30 2004 Subject: [tech] Burner vs. Diablo 2 (Re: [ucc] AGM Minutes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020323181829.04354078@pop.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> At 06:06 PM 23/03/2002 +0800, Elixxir wrote: >A low end pentium should suffice and when set up with linux would be great >:) >(although linux doesn't run Nero...which is a minus I can live with) > >I'm willing to help set this up if anyone agrees (I know this subject is >best brought up in a meeting but what the heck...) You have the right to kick of anyone playing games to burn your CD. Cheers, Maset. From mustang at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Sat Mar 23 18:35:40 2002 From: mustang at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (David Manchester) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:30 2004 Subject: [tech] Burner vs. Diablo 2 (Re: [ucc] AGM Minutes) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020323183540.G8216@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> On Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 06:06:26PM +0800, Elixxir wrote: > > Yeah...I mean I have nothing against the guys that play Diablo 2 (great > game) but I have one quibble. The burner's on the Windoze box :-| > > Now, whenever someone wants to burn something they can't...as both burning > and Diablo 2 take a heck of a lot of time. Can I suggest that a dedicated > box be set up for the burner[1] and call it the "Burning only box" or > simmilar (ie. people that want to burn have priority over others). > > A low end pentium should suffice and when set up with linux would be great > :) > (although linux doesn't run Nero...which is a minus I can live with) A Sparc2, Solaris an cdrecord would do fine. The club has a Sparc2 doing nothing ATM. Or you could put it on one of the under-used SGIs. Linux, linux, linux, linux. tsk. > I'm willing to help set this up if anyone agrees (I know this subject is > best brought up in a meeting but what the heck...) > [1] if this is done, a new burner is a must (2x is a bit antiquated.. :P ) Two points: 1) The current burner is 4x 2) "a must"? That bit should be put to committee. There aren't too many legitimate reasons for a CD-burner in the UCC, so I don't see why the other members should be financing easy w4r3z couriering for the current student populous. My 2c, D. PS: if you want me to set it up, I'll install the OS and the apps on the SS2 for you. -- " I don't get mad.... I get stabby. " - William "Fat Tony" Williams. From grahame at azale.net Sat Mar 23 18:36:45 2002 From: grahame at azale.net (Grahame Bowland) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:30 2004 Subject: [tech] Burner vs. Diablo 2 (Re: [ucc] AGM Minutes) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020323181829.04354078@pop.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020323181829.04354078@pop.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <20020323103645.GA531@sigaba> On Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 06:19:06PM +0800, Anil Sharma wrote: > At 06:06 PM 23/03/2002 +0800, Elixxir wrote: > >A low end pentium should suffice and when set up with linux would be great > >:) > >(although linux doesn't run Nero...which is a minus I can live with) > > > >I'm willing to help set this up if anyone agrees (I know this subject is > >best brought up in a meeting but what the heck...) > > You have the right to kick of anyone playing games to burn your CD. That doesn't really work. a) it requires you feel like a bastard for kicking someone off b) they'll invariably say 'just let me finish this one game' c) they'll probably just ignore you Can we plug it back into the Mac? -- Grahame Bowland From grahame at azale.net Sat Mar 23 18:41:52 2002 From: grahame at azale.net (Grahame Bowland) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:30 2004 Subject: [tech] Burner vs. Diablo 2 (Re: [ucc] AGM Minutes) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020323104152.GA554@sigaba> On Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 06:06:26PM +0800, Elixxir wrote: > [1] if this is done, a new burner is a must (2x is a bit antiquated.. :P ) It's a 4x burner and it is SCSI. It will burn in ~15 minutes and you can actually use your computer while it is burning. I have a 24x burn CD-RW at home that does them in about 3 minutes but really I don't think that difference is enough to waste club money on. -- Grahame Bowland From elixxir at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Sat Mar 23 19:42:13 2002 From: elixxir at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Elixxir) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:31 2004 Subject: [tech] Re: Burner vs. Diablo 2 Message-ID: Hi all, Thanks for ya emails. I wasn't expecting so much enthusiasm... :P Hmm, yeah I really don't like "kicking" people off cobbler (I think it's mean) and it's kinda justified since I'm using the most powerful computer in the club (/w 21" screen just for burning one or two cd's)... I support anyone that wants to move the burner. That much, I think should be done. Whether it goes back to nautilus or sgis or sparc 2, I don't care (as long as that machine is not used much for other purposes). And I do know it's 4x but James (trs80) cautioned me against using it at its max speed since it might stuff up. Even at 4x, I doubt 15mins Grahame... :D And James also told me *not* to use the computer while it's burning. I certainly don't think (even with a ton of luck) that I could burn at 4x while playing Diablo 2. In favour of moving the burner, Paul From elixxir at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Sat Mar 23 19:48:52 2002 From: elixxir at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Elixxir) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:31 2004 Subject: [tech] Burner vs. Diablo 2 In-Reply-To: <20020323183540.G8216@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Mar 2002, David Manchester wrote: > PS: if you want me to set it up, I'll install the OS and the apps on the > SS2 for you. > > -- > " I don't get mad.... I get stabby. " > - William "Fat Tony" Williams. > Yep, sure, when can you come to the club? I'll help if needed. Cheers, Paul From nick at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Sat Mar 23 20:20:30 2002 From: nick at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Nick Bannon) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:31 2004 Subject: [tech] Burner vs. Diablo 2 (Re: [ucc] AGM Minutes) In-Reply-To: <20020323183540.G8216@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> References: <20020323183540.G8216@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <20020323202030.U1302@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> On Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 06:35:40PM +0800, David Manchester wrote: > A Sparc2, Solaris an cdrecord would do fine. > The club has a Sparc2 doing nothing ATM. It'd work, but you'd need plenty of temporary space for building and rearranging CDs - a 4GB disc would do, but 9GB would be better. You'd definitely want Solaris 8 for the loopback mount support, but that'd run like a dog on a Sparc 2. Might be OK with enough RAM, if any graphical front-ends are run remotely on xterms. > Or you could put it on one of the under-used SGIs. Well, they've got zero free space, but Adrian was planning on improving that and doing a reinstall. > Linux, linux, linux, linux. tsk. The filesystem support is pretty handy for this sort of thing. 'Course one of the downsides is that if we use PC hardware to do it we'll be tempted to get IDE burners, which, even now, leave a bad taste. [...] > 2) "a must"? That bit should be put to committee. There aren't too many > legitimate reasons for a CD-burner in the UCC, so I don't see why the other > members should be financing easy w4r3z couriering for the current student > populous. You're most untrusting - home directory backups and free software not good enough for you, eh? ::-) Anyway, I think a DVD burner would be a better value investment - just posted to ucc@ucc about that, but the technical banter can stay here. [...] > PS: if you want me to set it up, I'll install the OS and the apps on the > SS2 for you. Sounds good. Nick. -- Nick Bannon | "I made this letter longer than usual because nick-sig@rcpt.to | I lack the time to make it shorter." - Pascal From mustang at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Sun Mar 24 00:14:22 2002 From: mustang at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (David Manchester) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:31 2004 Subject: [tech] Burner vs. Diablo 2 (Re: [ucc] AGM Minutes)y In-Reply-To: <20020323202030.U1302@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> References: <20020323183540.G8216@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020323202030.U1302@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <20020324001422.H8216@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> On Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 08:20:30PM +0800, Nick Bannon wrote: > On Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 06:35:40PM +0800, David Manchester wrote: > > A Sparc2, Solaris an cdrecord would do fine. > > The club has a Sparc2 doing nothing ATM. > > It'd work, but you'd need plenty of temporary space for building and > rearranging CDs - a 4GB disc would do, but 9GB would be better. You'd > definitely want Solaris 8 for the loopback mount support, but that'd > run like a dog on a Sparc 2. Might be OK with enough RAM, if any > graphical front-ends are run remotely on xterms. Uhhh.... NFS? Files on morwong, mkisofs, put ISO image onto SS2, burn CD. You can do loopback with software from cdrecord's author on Solaris previous to v8 & Sol8 won't run on a Sparc2. > > > Or you could put it on one of the under-used SGIs. > > Well, they've got zero free space, but Adrian was planning on improving > that and doing a reinstall. I could get enough IRIX with 4Dwm with some space for a CD image onto a 2GB disk. I think so, anyway. > > Linux, linux, linux, linux. tsk. > > The filesystem support is pretty handy for this sort of thing. 'Course > one of the downsides is that if we use PC hardware to do it we'll be > tempted to get IDE burners, which, even now, leave a bad taste. Which filesystem? > [...] > > 2) "a must"? That bit should be put to committee. There aren't too many > > legitimate reasons for a CD-burner in the UCC, so I don't see why the other > > members should be financing easy w4r3z couriering for the current student > > populous. > > You're most untrusting - home directory backups and free software not > good enough for you, eh? ::-) I was waiting for that... when was the last time someone backed up their home directory? Seriously? > Anyway, I think a DVD burner would be a better value investment - just > posted to ucc@ucc about that, but the technical banter can stay here. > I guess I better buy a DVD then. > [...] > > PS: if you want me to set it up, I'll install the OS and the apps on the > > SS2 for you. > > Sounds good. I'll swing by and pick up mola one day. D. -- " I don't get mad.... I get stabby. " - William "Fat Tony" Williams. From nick at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Sun Mar 24 11:59:53 2002 From: nick at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Nick Bannon) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:32 2004 Subject: [tech] Burner vs. Diablo 2 (Re: [ucc] AGM Minutes)y In-Reply-To: <20020324001422.H8216@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> References: <20020323183540.G8216@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020323202030.U1302@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324001422.H8216@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <20020324115953.W1302@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> On Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 12:14:22AM +0800, David Manchester wrote: > On Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 08:20:30PM +0800, Nick Bannon wrote: [...] > Uhhh.... NFS? > Files on morwong, mkisofs, put ISO image onto SS2, burn CD. Not to morwong - we haven't done that space upgrade yet. Even given that, having to get everything on and off via 10Mbps NFS (we don't have any 100Mbps Suns) is a bit sucky. Rearranging on local disc is better, but space for one image does not really suffice. The space issue is easy to fix though, 9GB HDDs are cheap enough. > You can do loopback with software from cdrecord's author on Solaris > previous to v8 & Sol8 won't run on a Sparc2. [...] > I could get enough IRIX with 4Dwm with some space for a CD image > onto a 2GB disk. I think so, anyway. azure's got a 2GB disk and 282MB free, scarlet's got 1GB and is pretty crippled. It'd be nice to have enough room for a nice fat /usr/local/* . I don't think they're on a 100Mbps switch - getting 729K/sec from azure, 664K/sec from scarlet. I seem to recall we were having some problems making them talk at 100Mbps properly... > > > Linux, linux, linux, linux. tsk. > > The filesystem support is pretty handy for this sort of thing. 'Course [...] > Which filesystem? Pretty much all of them. devfs so we can do things all nice and securely from userspace is a nice touch. Pretty much every on disk format you can think of, except perhaps AdvFS. Burning under MacOS Classic and Windows is pretty limiting by comparison, though at least you can do dd tricks on pretty much any *nix. [...] > > You're most untrusting - home directory backups and free software not > > good enough for you, eh? ::-) > > I was waiting for that... when was the last time someone backed up their > home directory? Seriously? [...] Shame on you - to suggest that the UCC burner might be used to transfer ill-gotten filez. The very thought. As for home directories - I've only used the CD-R for that a couple of times; I blame the lack of CD-RW support and automated helpful scripts. What I do now is rsync to my laptop via wavelan, about once a week or so. Nick. -- Nick Bannon | "I made this letter longer than usual because nick-sig@rcpt.to | I lack the time to make it shorter." - Pascal From grahame at azale.net Sun Mar 24 20:07:29 2002 From: grahame at azale.net (Grahame Bowland) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:32 2004 Subject: [tech] Burner vs. Diablo 2 (Re: [ucc] AGM Minutes)y In-Reply-To: <20020324115953.W1302@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> References: <20020323183540.G8216@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020323202030.U1302@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324001422.H8216@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324115953.W1302@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <20020324120729.GA5917@sigaba> On Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 11:59:53AM +0800, Nick Bannon wrote: > I don't think they're on a 100Mbps switch - getting 729K/sec from > azure, 664K/sec from scarlet. I seem to recall we were having some > problems making them talk at 100Mbps properly... Nobody ever installed the proper driver for the 100Mb cards in them. We've been using the onboard 10Mb interfaces. Mustang blurted a URL at me once which I promptly forgot, hence no 100Mb. Anyone know what it was? > > > > Linux, linux, linux, linux. tsk. > > > The filesystem support is pretty handy for this sort of thing. 'Course > [...] > > Which filesystem? > > Pretty much all of them. > > devfs so we can do things all nice and securely from userspace is a > nice touch. Pretty much every on disk format you can think of, except > perhaps AdvFS. Burning under MacOS Classic and Windows is pretty > limiting by comparison, though at least you can do dd tricks on pretty > much any *nix. Don't quite understand, surely you mostly only want the iso9660 and your native filesystem? About the only thing I'd want to read in from local media is old Amiga floppy disks, and Linux on x86 can't read those! > [...] > > > You're most untrusting - home directory backups and free software not > > > good enough for you, eh? ::-) > > > > I was waiting for that... when was the last time someone backed up their > > home directory? Seriously? > [...] > > Shame on you - to suggest that the UCC burner might be used to transfer > ill-gotten filez. The very thought. > > As for home directories - I've only used the CD-R for that a couple of > times; I blame the lack of CD-RW support and automated helpful scripts. > What I do now is rsync to my laptop via wavelan, about once a week or so. At the time we got it, CD-RW media cost too much and committee decided not to spend twice as much money to get a CD-RW writer. Nowadays CD-RWs cost what we were paying for blank CDs back then though! -- "At a risk of being called sexist, ageist and French, if you put multimedia, a leather skirt and lipstick on a grandmother and take her to a nightclub, she's still not going to get lucky." - JLG on Windows From mustang at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Sun Mar 24 20:29:04 2002 From: mustang at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (David Manchester) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:33 2004 Subject: [tech] Burner vs. Diablo 2 (Re: [ucc] AGM Minutes) In-Reply-To: <20020324120729.GA5917@sigaba> References: <20020323183540.G8216@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020323202030.U1302@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324001422.H8216@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324115953.W1302@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324120729.GA5917@sigaba> Message-ID: <20020324202904.A51957@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> On Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 08:07:29PM +0800, Grahame Bowland wrote: > On Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 11:59:53AM +0800, Nick Bannon wrote: > > I don't think they're on a 100Mbps switch - getting 729K/sec from > > azure, 664K/sec from scarlet. I seem to recall we were having some > > problems making them talk at 100Mbps properly... > > Nobody ever installed the proper driver for the 100Mb > cards in them. We've been using the onboard 10Mb interfaces. > > Mustang blurted a URL at me once which I promptly forgot, hence > no 100Mb. Anyone know what it was? Try this: http://www.sonicwall.com/download/Other_products.html > > devfs so we can do things all nice and securely from userspace is a > > nice touch. Pretty much every on disk format you can think of, except > > perhaps AdvFS. Burning under MacOS Classic and Windows is pretty > > limiting by comparison, though at least you can do dd tricks on pretty > > much any *nix. > > Don't quite understand, surely you mostly only want the iso9660 and > your native filesystem? About the only thing I'd want to read in > from local media is old Amiga floppy disks, and Linux on x86 can't > read those! Me neither. I only burn ISO9660 CDs Nick .... > > > > You're most untrusting - home directory backups and free software not > > > > good enough for you, eh? ::-) > > > > > > I was waiting for that... when was the last time someone backed up their > > > home directory? Seriously? > > [...] > > > > Shame on you - to suggest that the UCC burner might be used to transfer > > ill-gotten filez. The very thought. > > > > As for home directories - I've only used the CD-R for that a couple of > > times; I blame the lack of CD-RW support and automated helpful scripts. > > What I do now is rsync to my laptop via wavelan, about once a week or so. What's CD-RW got to do with it? a CD-R blank is like $0.75 ... D. -- " I don't get mad.... I get stabby. " - William "Fat Tony" Williams. From nick at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Sun Mar 24 21:40:04 2002 From: nick at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Nick Bannon) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:33 2004 Subject: [tech] Burner vs. Diablo 2 (Re: [ucc] AGM Minutes) In-Reply-To: <20020324202904.A51957@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> References: <20020323183540.G8216@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020323202030.U1302@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324001422.H8216@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324115953.W1302@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324120729.GA5917@sigaba> <20020324202904.A51957@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <20020324214004.X1302@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> On Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 08:29:04PM +0800, David Manchester wrote: > > Try this: http://www.sonicwall.com/download/Other_products.html > Cool, sounds fixable, then. [...] > > Don't quite understand, surely you mostly only want the iso9660 and > > your native filesystem? About the only thing I'd want to read in > > from local media is old Amiga floppy disks, and Linux on x86 can't > > read those! > > Me neither. I only burn ISO9660 CDs Nick .... Just to be clear - I'm all in favour of sticking the burner on a decent workstation that's not going to keep getting rebooted into a single user OS. However, Linux (tsk) on PC hardware (tsk) does have some advantages and if we just go and plug the burner straight into mola, we're going to have a crap solution and someone's just going end up plugging it back into a useful machine or doing without. It needs: * Fast ethernet * At least a couple of gigs of spare disc to play in (If it had additional temporary space > morwong's largest partition (a mere 9GB) I hereby promise to write some backup scripts using it. Attaching [SAF]'s DLT to it on occasion would be even better.) Linux also has advantages that it shares to a greater or lesser extent with other *nix'es - notably doing flexible things with filesystems. Sure it'll read Amiga disc images (though for actual floppies you'll need Amiga floppy hardware as well, but of course you knew that). I've found it very handy to be able to mount a 40GB ReiserFS partition on an IDE disc in a hard disc cradle and burn ready-made images straight off it. I've found it handy to be able to process and loopback mount large (eg 6GB and 20GB) disc images. It can make use of Joliet CDs. Given a decent network, though, none of that should be vital. [...] > What's CD-RW got to do with it? a CD-R blank is like $0.75 ... True, but not from the UCC vending machine. Still grates a bit to throw one away every month, when a CD-RW is now $1. Anyway, as Grahame said, at the time we got the drive that we had a sensible quote for. Nick. -- Nick Bannon | "I made this letter longer than usual because nick-sig@rcpt.to | I lack the time to make it shorter." - Pascal From mustang at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Sun Mar 24 22:17:59 2002 From: mustang at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (David Manchester) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:33 2004 Subject: [tech] Burner vs. Diablo 2 (Re: [ucc] AGM Minutes) In-Reply-To: <20020324214004.X1302@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> References: <20020323183540.G8216@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020323202030.U1302@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324001422.H8216@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324115953.W1302@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324120729.GA5917@sigaba> <20020324202904.A51957@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324214004.X1302@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <20020324221759.B51957@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> On Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 09:40:04PM +0800, Nick Bannon wrote: > > [...] > > > Don't quite understand, surely you mostly only want the iso9660 and > > > your native filesystem? About the only thing I'd want to read in > > > from local media is old Amiga floppy disks, and Linux on x86 can't > > > read those! > > > > Me neither. I only burn ISO9660 CDs Nick .... > > Just to be clear - I'm all in favour of sticking the burner on a decent > workstation that's not going to keep getting rebooted into a single > user OS. > > However, Linux (tsk) on PC hardware (tsk) does have some advantages and > if we just go and plug the burner straight into mola, we're going to > have a crap solution and someone's just going end up plugging it back > into a useful machine or doing without. > > It needs: > * Fast ethernet > * At least a couple of gigs of spare disc to play in > > (If it had additional temporary space > morwong's largest partition > (a mere 9GB) I hereby promise to write some backup scripts using it. > Attaching [SAF]'s DLT to it on occasion would be even better.) A couple of points before you get too excited about Simon's DLT: What does does it need fast ethernet for? You're not burning over the wire... the burner's only 4x. Why does it need so much disk? If you're backing up home directories, no-one's going to have much over 650MB, so where is the 9GB needed? The DDS-2 drive on morwong works. If you need to back things up in chunks larger than one CD, then use the 4mm drive. DDS-2 tapes are craploads cheaper than DLTs. Simon might remain in the UK. I expect the DLT will go with him if he returns to collect his belongings. > Linux also has advantages that it shares to a greater or lesser extent > with other *nix'es - notably doing flexible things with filesystems. > Sure it'll read Amiga disc images (though for actual floppies you'll > need Amiga floppy hardware as well, but of course you knew that). I've > found it very handy to be able to mount a 40GB ReiserFS partition on an > IDE disc in a hard disc cradle and burn ready-made images straight off > it. I've found it handy to be able to process and loopback mount large > (eg 6GB and 20GB) disc images. It can make use of Joliet CDs. Given a > decent network, though, none of that should be vital. I can't see how -any- of that makes a dedicated non-linux machine less useful for home directory backups. > [...] > > What's CD-RW got to do with it? a CD-R blank is like $0.75 ... > > True, but not from the UCC vending machine. Still grates a bit to throw > one away every month, when a CD-RW is now $1. Anyway, as Grahame said, > at the time we got the drive that we had a sensible quote for. Grates? At $12.00/year? Why bother backing up at all if your data isn't worth that much? D. -- " I don't get mad.... I get stabby. " - William "Fat Tony" Williams. From nick at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Sun Mar 24 23:34:07 2002 From: nick at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Nick Bannon) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:34 2004 Subject: [tech] Burner vs. Diablo 2 (Re: [ucc] AGM Minutes) In-Reply-To: <20020324221759.B51957@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> References: <20020323183540.G8216@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020323202030.U1302@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324001422.H8216@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324115953.W1302@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324120729.GA5917@sigaba> <20020324202904.A51957@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324214004.X1302@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324221759.B51957@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <20020324233406.Y1302@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> You're putting a lot of effort into finding things to object to. ::-( Do you agree that a CD burner in the UCC is useful for more than just filez? If so, do you agree that a fast and convenient one is, generally speaking, better than a slow and inconvenient one? You might very well disagree about whether it's worth money or effort to improve the current setup, but that's a separate matter. On Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 10:17:59PM +0800, David Manchester wrote: [...] > What does does it need fast ethernet for? > You're not burning over the wire... the burner's only 4x. > > Why does it need so much disk? > If you're backing up home directories, no-one's going to have much > over 650MB, so where is the 9GB needed? It's a bad idea to burn over the wire, so people need to put things on temporary disc instead. They probably want to transfer more stuff while the first one's burning and they need to have room to make an image from the second lot as well. Hence 2GB as a minimum. For CD backup purposes, it's nice to make a partition's worth of images and then burn them over a period of days, deleting as you go. Hence 9GB. For tape backups it's nice to create archives on disk then stream them to tape. Hence 9GB. As for the fast ethernet - do you prefer transferring ISO images' worth of stuff over fast ethernet or standard ethernet? > The DDS-2 drive on morwong works. It's good to have that confirmed. > If you need to back things up in chunks larger than one CD, > then use the 4mm drive. DDS-2 tapes are craploads cheaper than DLTs. We already have enough tapes to do a backup or three - we don't need to buy any. People don't seem bothered enough to do a backup that spans tapes, whereas I know I would personally be willing to do a backup onto one suitably large tape. I also like DLTs. ::-) > Simon might remain in the UK. > I expect the DLT will go with him if he returns to collect his > belongings. I expect so. However, I'm happy to make use of it, while it's here, if we have everything we need to make it go. (Actually, we already do, over the network, anyway. Guess I should give it a shot) If we need to restore a DLT and no longer have access to it, there's a number of drives on and off campus that are suitable. [...] > I can't see how -any- of that makes a dedicated non-linux machine > less useful for home directory backups. I'm not sure why you think I would say such a thing, or what home directory backups specifically have to do with it. It was a statement about why UNIX machines are good for manipulating filesystems. [...] > Grates? At $12.00/year? [...] Sure it does, even though it doesn't stop me from using CD-R's. I don't like throwing things away if I don't have to. By that argument, all CD-RW's are worthless. (You might think that all CD-RW's are worthless, but it's been nice to create a test disc, realise that it's broken, and try again without throwing it away) Nick. -- Nick Bannon | "I made this letter longer than usual because nick-sig@rcpt.to | I lack the time to make it shorter." - Pascal From mustang at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Sun Mar 24 23:51:23 2002 From: mustang at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (David Manchester) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:34 2004 Subject: [tech] Burner vs. Diablo 2 (Re: [ucc] AGM Minutes) In-Reply-To: <20020324233406.Y1302@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> References: <20020323183540.G8216@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020323202030.U1302@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324001422.H8216@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324115953.W1302@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324120729.GA5917@sigaba> <20020324202904.A51957@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324214004.X1302@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324221759.B51957@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324233406.Y1302@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <20020324235123.D51957@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> On Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 11:34:07PM +0800, Nick Bannon wrote: > You're putting a lot of effort into finding things to object to. ::-( > > Do you agree that a CD burner in the UCC is useful for more than just > filez? > > If so, do you agree that a fast and convenient one is, generally > speaking, better than a slow and inconvenient one? > > You might very well disagree about whether it's worth money or effort > to improve the current setup, but that's a separate matter. I would suggest that the UCC already has a CD burner. I would suggest that its already perfectly adequate for backing up people's homedirectories. I would suggest that people buy their own damned CD-R if they think that the UCC's is too slow. I don't think that having a CD-R in the clubroom is as much of a drawcard as the committee thought it would be when it waso originally purchased. > On Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 10:17:59PM +0800, David Manchester wrote: > [...] > > What does does it need fast ethernet for? > > You're not burning over the wire... the burner's only 4x. > > > > Why does it need so much disk? > > If you're backing up home directories, no-one's going to have much > > over 650MB, so where is the 9GB needed? > > It's a bad idea to burn over the wire, so people need to put things on > temporary disc instead. They probably want to transfer more stuff while > the first one's burning and they need to have room to make an image from > the second lot as well. Hence 2GB as a minimum. Erm, how much stuff do you have in your home directory? This is beginning to read a lot more like your want to use the CD-R to create images of software you've downloaded. Why not do it at home? > For CD backup purposes, it's nice to make a partition's worth of images > and then burn them over a period of days, deleting as you go. Hence > 9GB. For tape backups it's nice to create archives on disk then stream > them to tape. Hence 9GB. Ah, so if you ever intend to back anything up, make sure you have at least twice as much disk as you have data. Makes perfect sense to me... > As for the fast ethernet - do you prefer transferring ISO images' worth > of stuff over fast ethernet or standard ethernet? Ah - here we go. Transferring ISO images. So, we're not really talking home backups, we're talking about making the latest Debian CD because we're too cheap to buy one. (Speaking of which, I must return your LSL CDs one day RSN). > The DDS-2 drive on morwong works. > > It's good to have that confirmed. > > > If you need to back things up in chunks larger than one CD, > > then use the 4mm drive. DDS-2 tapes are craploads cheaper than DLTs. > > We already have enough tapes to do a backup or three - we don't need to > buy any. People don't seem bothered enough to do a backup that spans > tapes, whereas I know I would personally be willing to do a backup onto > one suitably large tape. I also like DLTs. ::-) No, we've got some tapes of dubious utility and condition. Please put some decent tapes in it. I didn't donate it to see it destroyed. > > Simon might remain in the UK. > > I expect the DLT will go with him if he returns to collect his > > belongings. > > I expect so. However, I'm happy to make use of it, while it's here, if > we have everything we need to make it go. (Actually, we already do, > over the network, anyway. Guess I should give it a shot) > > If we need to restore a DLT and no longer have access to it, there's a > number of drives on and off campus that are suitable. Mmm. I'm glad I donated that DDS2 drive then. *sigh* > [...] > > I can't see how -any- of that makes a dedicated non-linux machine > > less useful for home directory backups. > > I'm not sure why you think I would say such a thing, or what home > directory backups specifically have to do with it. It was a statement > about why UNIX machines are good for manipulating filesystems. No, linux machines. Your argument seemed to be that linux had interesting filesystems which made backups easier. I failed to find evidence for that. > > Grates? At $12.00/year? > [...] > > Sure it does, even though it doesn't stop me from using CD-R's. I don't > like throwing things away if I don't have to. By that argument, > all CD-RW's are worthless. Hardly. What's wrong with archival copies? I shouldn't need to explain to you that if you've already broken the file and backed up the broken one -before- you realise it, then the backup is of little use. > (You might think that all CD-RW's are worthless, but it's been nice > to create a test disc, realise that it's broken, and try again > without throwing it away) Seventy five cents. D. -- " I don't get mad.... I get stabby. " - William "Fat Tony" Williams. From nick at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Mon Mar 25 10:57:56 2002 From: nick at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Nick Bannon) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:35 2004 Subject: [tech] Burner vs. Diablo 2 (Re: [ucc] AGM Minutes) In-Reply-To: <20020324235123.D51957@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> References: <20020323183540.G8216@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020323202030.U1302@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324001422.H8216@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324115953.W1302@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324120729.GA5917@sigaba> <20020324202904.A51957@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324214004.X1302@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324221759.B51957@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324233406.Y1302@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324235123.D51957@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <20020325105756.B1302@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> On Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 11:51:23PM +0800, David Manchester wrote: > On Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 11:34:07PM +0800, Nick Bannon wrote: > > You're putting a lot of effort into finding things to object to. ::-( [...] > I would suggest that the UCC already has a CD burner. [...] So you think that a burner _is_ useful, you don't have a problem with fast ones, generally speaking, but you simply don't think it's worth money or effort to improve the current setup. Fairy nuff. > I would suggest that its already perfectly adequate for backing up > people's homedirectories. Oh, it is, and more besides. You seem to have seized upon the idea of home directory backups as the only "legitimate" use of the CD-R. Hence anything that can handle a few tens of megs and be used once a month is more than enough. > I would suggest that people buy their own damned CD-R if they think > that the UCC's is too slow. > I don't think that having a CD-R in the clubroom is as much of a > drawcard as the committee thought it would be when it waso originally > purchased. Our current CD-R was bought in late 1999 - years too late to be a drawcard to speak of. It's been well worth its purchase price, though. When you can get a drive that's six times faster for less than half the price we paid, and 32x drives are commonplace, then (a) people certainly do go and buy their own and (b) it's not suprising that they claim that the UCC one is slow. [...] > Erm, how much stuff do you have in your home directory? > This is beginning to read a lot more like your want to use the CD-R > to create images of software you've downloaded. > Why not do it at home? [...] > > As for the fast ethernet - do you prefer transferring ISO images' worth > > of stuff over fast ethernet or standard ethernet? > > Ah - here we go. Transferring ISO images. > So, we're not really talking home backups, we're talking about making the > latest Debian CD because we're too cheap to buy one. > (Speaking of which, I must return your LSL CDs one day RSN). It's not just about what I want, but if you have no need to use the CD-R then I guess you don't mind talking about it either. Certainly I want to transfer software. Typically by downloading it from a campus or WAIX site, putting it on CD or HDD, and yes, taking it home; whenever it's cheaper, more convenient, and/or faster than buying it. FWIW, I'm also looking forward to buying an official Debian R3.0r0 (woody) set, OpenBSD etc. > > For CD backup purposes, it's nice to make a partition's worth of images > > and then burn them over a period of days, deleting as you go. Hence > > 9GB. For tape backups it's nice to create archives on disk then stream > > them to tape. Hence 9GB. > > Ah, so if you ever intend to back anything up, make sure you have at least > twice as much disk as you have data. > Makes perfect sense to me... You're sounding sarcastic there, but for anything under a hundred gigs or so it certainly is cheap, reliable and convenient to do so. Temporary space as large as your largest data partition, compressed, that is, as opposed to "twice as much". It's handy if it _is_ twice as much, then you can do straightforward full backups and restores in one go, and let's face it, incrementals would be a right pain to deal with, here. Given temporary space, we can drop in a simple, trustworthy backup system like AMANDA, or custom scripts, or just the occasional manual backup. It even means we have somewhere to restore to. [...] > No, we've got some tapes of dubious utility and condition. > Please put some decent tapes in it. I didn't donate it to see it destroyed. > Mmm. I'm glad I donated that DDS2 drive then. *sigh* We've got some brand new tapes and I think a head cleaner, but I think it's a bit unrealistic to expect that nothing else will ever be permitted to come in contact with it. I'm glad you donated it. On the downside it means that we can't whinge and blame not having access to a tape drive for the lack of backups. On the upside it means that someone finally got a burst of enthusiasm to give it a shot. (Congrats, [AHC]) [...] > > > I can't see how -any- of that makes a dedicated non-linux machine > > > less useful for home directory backups. > > > > I'm not sure why you think I would say such a thing, or what home > > directory backups specifically have to do with it. It was a statement > > about why UNIX machines are good for manipulating filesystems. > > No, linux machines. I specifically said "*nix'es". I don't know why you interpreted it that way. > Your argument seemed to be that linux had interesting filesystems which > made backups easier. I failed to find evidence for that. It does. You can dd a file straight off (or onto) a backup media, in all manner of formats, pipe it through all manner of things and manipulate it in all manner of ways. Try that on Windows, NT or otherwise. [...] > > (You might think that all CD-RW's are worthless, but it's been nice > > to create a test disc, realise that it's broken, and try again > > without throwing it away) > > Seventy five cents. For an extra 25 cents you can reuse it. Archive copies are good too. Nick. -- Nick Bannon | "I made this letter longer than usual because nick-sig@rcpt.to | I lack the time to make it shorter." - Pascal From mustang at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Mon Mar 25 11:59:56 2002 From: mustang at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (David Manchester) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:35 2004 Subject: [tech] Burner vs. Diablo 2 (Re: [ucc] AGM Minutes) In-Reply-To: <20020325105756.B1302@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> References: <20020323202030.U1302@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324001422.H8216@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324115953.W1302@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324120729.GA5917@sigaba> <20020324202904.A51957@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324214004.X1302@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324221759.B51957@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324233406.Y1302@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020324235123.D51957@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020325105756.B1302@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <20020325115956.G51957@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> I'm way too frustrated to continue this thread. If someone wants the CD burner on one of the SGIs or mola, give me a shout. If you want to wait for the Linux uberBackup machine, then give Nick a shout. D. -- " I don't get mad.... I get stabby. " - William "Fat Tony" Williams. From elixxir at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Mon Mar 25 13:31:44 2002 From: elixxir at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Paul Marinceu) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:35 2004 Subject: [tech] Burner vs. Diablo 2 (Re: [ucc] AGM Minutes) Message-ID: Hmm, How hard is it to get a burner moved... :P >I'm way too frustrated to continue this thread. >If someone wants the CD burner on one of the SGIs or mola, give me a >shout. >If you want to wait for the Linux uberBackup machine, then give Nick a >shout. I agree, the issue has now been talked/exploited to death :D Just move it from that darned Win98 machine to whichever workstation you want (ie. sgi or sparc). And if/when Nick gets the "uberBackup" Linux box running, we can just move it there. And hopefully when someone decides they want to burn an image of Debian testing (or any other open source stuff or their /home) they can, without having to unglue a Diablo 2 player from the machine. So, whenever you guys decide, send me an email and I'll drop in and help with the setting up. =) From dayta at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Mon Mar 25 14:22:36 2002 From: dayta at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Leighton Haynes) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:36 2004 Subject: [tech] Burner vs. Diablo 2 (Re: [ucc] AGM Minutes) In-Reply-To: <20020325060305.GA9839@sigaba> References: <20020325134252.F44452@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020325060305.GA9839@sigaba> Message-ID: <20020325142236.G44452@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> On Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 02:03:06PM +0800, Grahame Bowland wrote: > On Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 01:42:53PM +0800, Leighton Haynes wrote: > > On Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 01:31:44PM +0800, Paul Marinceu wrote: > > > Hmm, > > > > > > How hard is it to get a burner moved... :P > > > > You don't have much experience with committees, do you? > > > > > >I'm way too frustrated to continue this thread. > > > >If someone wants the CD burner on one of the SGIs or mola, give me a > > > >shout. > > > >If you want to wait for the Linux uberBackup machine, then give Nick a > > > >shout. > > > > > > I agree, the issue has now been talked/exploited to death :D > > > Just move it from that darned Win98 machine to whichever > > > workstation you want (ie. sgi or sparc). And if/when Nick gets the > > > "uberBackup" Linux box running, we can just move it there. > > > > I personally find it vastly amusing that people find it 'easier' to use > > the crappy commandline tools from *nix than learning how to use the > > (really quite good) windows tools ;) > > > > But, I guess you can't teach an old dog new tricks. > > To make 'backup copies' of my software I use: > dd if=/dev/scd0 of=backup.iso > cdrecord -v dev=0,0,0 speed=24 backup.iso > > You mean there is a faster way to do that with a GUI? ;) Perhaps not, but the commandline tools are really crap for things like, say multisession. I often download iso/cue combos and burn them too. These are trivial to use in windows. I also have really nice tools in windows to do things like rip out info about positions of things in iso9660 cds and cd images. All useful stuff. Stuff might exist on linux to do it. I doubt better tools exist in linux to do it :P Incidentally, cd burner on multi-boot machine means arguments on which is better are completely irrelevant. It's be nice to stay this way. Leighton...completely biased. If ucc take it away from the windows box, he'll have to get his own burner. -- #0421 113 305 - dayta@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au How do you expect?/I will know what to do./When all I know. Is what you tell me to. - Linkin Park/By Myself From elixxir at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Mon Mar 25 20:01:12 2002 From: elixxir at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Paul Marinceu) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:36 2004 Subject: [tech] Burner vs. Diablo 2 (Re: [ucc] AGM Minutes) In-Reply-To: <20020325142324.A66210@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Mar 2002, Nick Bannon wrote: > I think you and Dave missed the bit: > Just to be clear - I'm all in favour of sticking the burner on a decent > workstation that's not going to keep getting rebooted into a single > user OS. > > > So, whenever you guys decide, send me an email and I'll drop > > in and help with the setting up. > > In the end it's only talk. If you want to help set up a workstation, go > for it. Nobody needs to "decide" anything, it's your club. > Hmm, yeah, unfortunately there's a minor problem here: Three rather: 1. I am not wheel (yet) thus I can't just poke around and install anything I want. 2. Even if I was, I have no idea what machines ucc has lurking in dusty corners that could be used to put the burner in (which one's the sparc??) 3. And even if I knew which one the sparc was, I'm not familiar with that type of arch (neither am I familiar with the sgi arch). So, that's why I kind of hoped someone else would be willing to help me do it. Of course, since it was my idea I'll have to come along and help in *some* way (like screwing off/on the case bolts etc... :-P) Hence, email me when you're ready. And thanks to all that support this, Paul From adrian at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Mon Mar 25 20:07:08 2002 From: adrian at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Adrian Chadd) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:36 2004 Subject: [tech] Burner vs. Diablo 2 (Re: [ucc] AGM Minutes) In-Reply-To: References: <20020325142324.A66210@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <20020325200708.C70906@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> On Mon, Mar 25, 2002, Paul Marinceu wrote: > > In the end it's only talk. If you want to help set up a workstation, go > > for it. Nobody needs to "decide" anything, it's your club. > > > > Hmm, yeah, unfortunately there's a minor problem here: > Three rather: > > 1. I am not wheel (yet) thus I can't just poke around and install > anything I want. Why not? You can't poke and install UCC machines, but if there's a sparc 2 doing nothing there's nothing stopping you setting it up and playing with it. > 2. Even if I was, I have no idea what machines ucc has lurking in dusty > corners that could be used to put the burner in (which one's the sparc??) > 3. And even if I knew which one the sparc was, I'm not familiar with that > type of arch (neither am I familiar with the sgi arch). Ask. > So, that's why I kind of hoped someone else would be willing to help me do > it. Of course, since it was my idea I'll have to come along and help in > *some* way (like screwing off/on the case bolts etc... :-P) Well, think of it as a learning experience. :) adiran From davyd at iprimus.com.au Thu Mar 28 19:33:04 2002 From: davyd at iprimus.com.au (proXy) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:37 2004 Subject: [tech] A project idea... Message-ID: <1017315186.1315.18.camel@Epoch> I know that alot of people dislike the idea of whacking linux on things, but I thought maybe we could port Yellow Dog Linux (or something similar) to one of the pizza box macs in the corridor. http://www.yellowdoglinux.com/products/ydl.shtml if someone (not me but i would certainly help) wanted to, it could be done the hard way (can you compile a kernel on such a processor) (perhaps we could try freeBSD ;) I think this would be something interesting and different to have, also something to have a bit of a play with. --proXy (aka davYd) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au/pipermail/tech/attachments/20020328/83b0508f/attachment.htm From grahame at azale.net Thu Mar 28 20:56:13 2002 From: grahame at azale.net (Grahame Bowland) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:37 2004 Subject: [tech] A project idea... In-Reply-To: <1017315186.1315.18.camel@Epoch> References: <1017315186.1315.18.camel@Epoch> Message-ID: <20020328125612.GA1396@sigaba> On Thu, Mar 28, 2002 at 07:33:04PM +0800, proXy wrote: > I know that alot of people dislike the idea of whacking linux on things, > but I thought maybe we could port Yellow Dog Linux (or something > similar) to one of the pizza box macs in the corridor. > http://www.yellowdoglinux.com/products/ydl.shtml > if someone (not me but i would certainly help) wanted to, it could be > done the hard way (can you compile a kernel on such a processor) > (perhaps we could try freeBSD ;) > I think this would be something interesting and different to have, > also something to have a bit of a play with. Dude, I think you're going to need a MMU on those processors. You won't have protected memory and Linux is a protected memory operating system. -- "At a risk of being called sexist, ageist and French, if you put multimedia, a leather skirt and lipstick on a grandmother and take her to a nightclub, she's still not going to get lucky." - JLG on Windows From davyd at iprimus.com.au Thu Mar 28 22:00:04 2002 From: davyd at iprimus.com.au (proXy) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:38 2004 Subject: [tech] A project idea... In-Reply-To: <20020328125612.GA1396@sigaba> References: <1017315186.1315.18.camel@Epoch> <20020328125612.GA1396@sigaba> Message-ID: <1017324006.1315.24.camel@Epoch> Being a particularly non-mac oriontated person, I wouldn't know exactly. But I get the impression from that linux, that the mac version of the os, will run on the older machines. http://www.yellowdoglinux.com/support/hardware/supported.shtml There is that other mac in the corner, which looks alot like the one down the bottom of that page (once again I am showing my nonmacciness) --proXy On Thu, 2002-03-28 at 20:56, Grahame Bowland wrote: On Thu, Mar 28, 2002 at 07:33:04PM +0800, proXy wrote: > I know that alot of people dislike the idea of whacking linux on things, > but I thought maybe we could port Yellow Dog Linux (or something > similar) to one of the pizza box macs in the corridor. > http://www.yellowdoglinux.com/products/ydl.shtml > if someone (not me but i would certainly help) wanted to, it could be > done the hard way (can you compile a kernel on such a processor) > (perhaps we could try freeBSD ;) > I think this would be something interesting and different to have, > also something to have a bit of a play with. Dude, I think you're going to need a MMU on those processors. You won't have protected memory and Linux is a protected memory operating system. -- "At a risk of being called sexist, ageist and French, if you put multimedia, a leather skirt and lipstick on a grandmother and take her to a nightclub, she's still not going to get lucky." - JLG on Windows -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au/pipermail/tech/attachments/20020328/b164f83d/attachment.html From dayta at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Thu Mar 28 22:18:14 2002 From: dayta at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Leighton Haynes) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:38 2004 Subject: [tech] A project idea... In-Reply-To: <1017324006.1315.24.camel@Epoch> References: <1017315186.1315.18.camel@Epoch> <20020328125612.GA1396@sigaba> <1017324006.1315.24.camel@Epoch> Message-ID: <20020328221814.B109589@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> On Thu, Mar 28, 2002 at 10:00:04PM +0800, proXy wrote: > Being a particularly non-mac oriontated person, I wouldn't know exactly. > But I get the impression from that linux, that the mac version of the > os, will run on the older machines. > http://www.yellowdoglinux.com/support/hardware/supported.shtml > There is that other mac in the corner, which looks alot like the one > down the bottom of that page (once again I am showing my nonmacciness) I believe the mac you want to install on is an LC630. YDL doesn't claim to install on anything before PowerPCs. Besides, I'm one of these people that's sick and bloody tired of the 'install linux on everything'. Let's face it. Linux on PPC looks very much like Linux on x86. What's the fucking point? Oh, and just because I'm sick of reiterating it again and again. No, I don't think Linux on PS2 is a good idea. It's a bad idea. There are better solutions than crippling a really lovely architecture with a bloated OS> Leighton... -- #0421 113 305 - dayta@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au How do you expect?/I will know what to do./When all I know. Is what you tell me to. - Linkin Park/By Myself From grahame at azale.net Thu Mar 28 22:44:58 2002 From: grahame at azale.net (Grahame Bowland) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:38 2004 Subject: [tech] A project idea... In-Reply-To: <20020328221814.B109589@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> References: <1017315186.1315.18.camel@Epoch> <20020328125612.GA1396@sigaba> <1017324006.1315.24.camel@Epoch> <20020328221814.B109589@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <20020328144458.GA6181@sigaba> On Thu, Mar 28, 2002 at 10:18:14PM +0800, Leighton Haynes wrote: > On Thu, Mar 28, 2002 at 10:00:04PM +0800, proXy wrote: > > Being a particularly non-mac oriontated person, I wouldn't know exactly. > > But I get the impression from that linux, that the mac version of the > > os, will run on the older machines. > > http://www.yellowdoglinux.com/support/hardware/supported.shtml > > There is that other mac in the corner, which looks alot like the one > > down the bottom of that page (once again I am showing my nonmacciness) > > I believe the mac you want to install on is an LC630. YDL doesn't claim to > install on anything before PowerPCs. > > Besides, I'm one of these people that's sick and bloody tired of the > 'install linux on everything'. Let's face it. Linux on PPC looks very > much like Linux on x86. What's the fucking point? The point is to: o increase the instability of the linux distribution (as LOTS of code just doesn't work as sizeof(int) != sizeof(void) on some platforms) o bloat my debian mirror and make me revise my rsync filters o spread an ill-designed, poorly-scaling and not-so-stable operating system. yay! [0] To proxy re: porting Linux to those Macs; I'm pretty sure the old ones in the corridor are M68K based. They're not likely to have a Memory Management Unit and that means you can't have seperate kernel / userland memory maps or enforse memory boundries between processes. And that means that although you could hack out all of the memory management and task management (including security) from Linux you might not even be able to do pre-emptive multitasking without some awful hacks. All and all, pointless :-) > Oh, and just because I'm sick of reiterating it again and again. > No, I don't think Linux on PS2 is a good idea. It's a bad idea. > There are better solutions than crippling a really lovely architecture > with a bloated OS> Ok but how do you get into the swing of things without a nice comfortable libc to use? :-) Or does the devkit give you the stuff to bootstrap the platform and get you into some defined state? -- "At a risk of being called sexist, ageist and French, if you put multimedia, a leather skirt and lipstick on a grandmother and take her to a nightclub, she's still not going to get lucky." - JLG on Windows [0] I'll pay that this is flamebait. However, just looking at graphs at performance between 2.2 and 2.4 and quite a bit of experience doing Linux admin stuff makes me actually believe this. It doesn't make me believe that anything else is necessarily better though :) From adrian at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Thu Mar 28 22:47:47 2002 From: adrian at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Adrian Chadd) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:38 2004 Subject: [tech] A project idea... In-Reply-To: <20020328144458.GA6181@sigaba> References: <1017315186.1315.18.camel@Epoch> <20020328125612.GA1396@sigaba> <1017324006.1315.24.camel@Epoch> <20020328221814.B109589@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020328144458.GA6181@sigaba> Message-ID: <20020328224747.F94458@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> On Thu, Mar 28, 2002, Grahame Bowland wrote: [snip] > o spread an ill-designed, poorly-scaling and not-so-stable > operating system. yay! [0] > ones in the corridor are M68K based. They're not likely to have a > Memory Management Unit and that means you can't have seperate kernel / > userland memory maps or enforse memory boundries between processes. Uhm, which m68k? :) > [0] I'll pay that this is flamebait. However, just looking at graphs > at performance between 2.2 and 2.4 and quite a bit of experience > doing Linux admin stuff makes me actually believe this. It doesn't > make me believe that anything else is necessarily better though :) Yay. Finally, I find someone who agrees with me! Adrian, already a unix cynic From grahame at azale.net Thu Mar 28 22:48:54 2002 From: grahame at azale.net (Grahame Bowland) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:38 2004 Subject: [tech] A project idea... In-Reply-To: <1017315186.1315.18.camel@Epoch> References: <1017315186.1315.18.camel@Epoch> Message-ID: <20020328144854.GA6286@sigaba> On Thu, Mar 28, 2002 at 07:33:04PM +0800, proXy wrote: > I know that alot of people dislike the idea of whacking linux on things, > but I thought maybe we could port Yellow Dog Linux (or something > similar) to one of the pizza box macs in the corridor. > http://www.yellowdoglinux.com/products/ydl.shtml > if someone (not me but i would certainly help) wanted to, it could be > done the hard way (can you compile a kernel on such a processor) > (perhaps we could try freeBSD ;) > I think this would be something interesting and different to have, > also something to have a bit of a play with. If you're enthused track down a better target for Linux (like a 68K with an MMU) and get it to run on that... anyway, I'm busy organising to show my Arabian horse ;) Port Linux to Java and make it run on one of those things Adrian has ;) [0] -- "At a risk of being called sexist, ageist and French, if you put multimedia, a leather skirt and lipstick on a grandmother and take her to a nightclub, she's still not going to get lucky." - JLG on Windows [0] How many monitors just got painted green because of me? :-) From proxy at zdlcomputing.com Thu Mar 28 22:40:44 2002 From: proxy at zdlcomputing.com (proXy) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:39 2004 Subject: [tech] A project idea... In-Reply-To: <20020328221814.B109589@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> References: <1017315186.1315.18.camel@Epoch> <20020328125612.GA1396@sigaba> <1017324006.1315.24.camel@Epoch> <20020328221814.B109589@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <1017326445.1316.63.camel@Epoch> On Thu, 2002-03-28 at 22:18, Leighton Haynes wrote: On Thu, Mar 28, 2002 at 10:00:04PM +0800, proXy wrote: > Being a particularly non-mac oriontated person, I wouldn't know exactly. > But I get the impression from that linux, that the mac version of the > os, will run on the older machines. > http://www.yellowdoglinux.com/support/hardware/supported.shtml > There is that other mac in the corner, which looks alot like the one > down the bottom of that page (once again I am showing my nonmacciness) I believe the mac you want to install on is an LC630. YDL doesn't claim to install on anything before PowerPCs. Like I said, I don't know Besides, I'm one of these people that's sick and bloody tired of the 'install linux on everything'. Let's face it. Linux on PPC looks very much like Linux on x86. What's the fucking point? This is a very good question actually, but i think It would be something different. I would gladly port NetBSD to it, if I thought it were possible. Oh, and just because I'm sick of reiterating it again and again. No, I don't think Linux on PS2 is a good idea. It's a bad idea. There are better solutions than crippling a really lovely architecture with a bloated OS> Yes, but this is a mac, not a PS2, and which sucks more? MacOS or Linux? Note, for fairness, MacOSX may not be brought into this discussion ;) Leighton... -- #0421 113 305 - dayta@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au How do you expect?/I will know what to do./When all I know. Is what you tell me to. - Linkin Park/By Myself -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au/pipermail/tech/attachments/20020328/4e831406/attachment.htm From dayta at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Thu Mar 28 22:50:44 2002 From: dayta at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Leighton Haynes) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:39 2004 Subject: [tech] A project idea... In-Reply-To: <20020328144458.GA6181@sigaba> References: <1017315186.1315.18.camel@Epoch> <20020328125612.GA1396@sigaba> <1017324006.1315.24.camel@Epoch> <20020328221814.B109589@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020328144458.GA6181@sigaba> Message-ID: <20020328225044.C109589@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> On Thu, Mar 28, 2002 at 10:44:58PM +0800, Grahame Bowland wrote: > On Thu, Mar 28, 2002 at 10:18:14PM +0800, Leighton Haynes wrote: > > Oh, and just because I'm sick of reiterating it again and again. > > No, I don't think Linux on PS2 is a good idea. It's a bad idea. > > There are better solutions than crippling a really lovely architecture > > with a bloated OS> > > Ok but how do you get into the swing of things without a nice > comfortable libc to use? :-) Or does the devkit give you the stuff to > bootstrap the platform and get you into some defined state? Well, theres the official stuff, which I'm not allowed to talk about on pain of Sony's goons coming at me with baseball bats. But theres also the homebrew stuff. Currently theres a cdimage which you boot on the PS2, this talks to a windows or linux box via a PL2301 USB cable. There are libs around in various states of disrepair - I think theres most of a libc, a pad control lib, and various other bits and pieces. The actual hardware is reasonably documented, kinda. The Linux kit comes with PDFs of all the hardware manuals (which, you can imagine makes them fairly easily obtainable). Leighton... -- #0421 113 305 - dayta@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au How do you expect?/I will know what to do./When all I know. Is what you tell me to. - Linkin Park/By Myself From dayta at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Thu Mar 28 22:54:40 2002 From: dayta at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Leighton Haynes) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:39 2004 Subject: [tech] A project idea... In-Reply-To: <1017326445.1316.63.camel@Epoch> References: <1017315186.1315.18.camel@Epoch> <20020328125612.GA1396@sigaba> <1017324006.1315.24.camel@Epoch> <20020328221814.B109589@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <1017326445.1316.63.camel@Epoch> Message-ID: <20020328225440.D109589@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> On Thu, Mar 28, 2002 at 10:40:44PM +0800, proXy wrote: > On Thu, 2002-03-28 at 22:18, Leighton Haynes wrote: > Besides, I'm one of these people that's sick and bloody tired of the > 'install linux on everything'. Let's face it. Linux on PPC looks very > much like Linux on x86. What's the fucking point? > > > This is a very good question actually, but i think It would be something > different. > I would gladly port NetBSD to it, if I thought it were possible. Oh woo. Lets shove BSD on it. > Oh, and just because I'm sick of reiterating it again and again. > No, I don't think Linux on PS2 is a good idea. It's a bad idea. > There are better solutions than crippling a really lovely architecture > with a bloated OS> > > > Yes, but this is a mac, not a PS2, and which sucks more? MacOS or > Linux? > Note, for fairness, MacOSX may not be brought into this discussion ;) Actually, I'd much prefer MacOS on a mac to Linux on a mac. One thing i've noticed about these 'let's run Linux on hardware X' is that they're rarely all that useful any more. Theres a massive base of useful software for MacOS. Theres less software for Linux of note, and chances are, the most useful ones won't compile or work on a mac anyhow :P Leighton... -- #0421 113 305 - dayta@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au How do you expect?/I will know what to do./When all I know. Is what you tell me to. - Linkin Park/By Myself From grahame at azale.net Thu Mar 28 22:55:50 2002 From: grahame at azale.net (Grahame Bowland) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:40 2004 Subject: [tech] A project idea... In-Reply-To: <20020328224747.F94458@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> References: <1017315186.1315.18.camel@Epoch> <20020328125612.GA1396@sigaba> <1017324006.1315.24.camel@Epoch> <20020328221814.B109589@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020328144458.GA6181@sigaba> <20020328224747.F94458@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <20020328145550.GB6286@sigaba> On Thu, Mar 28, 2002 at 10:47:47PM +0800, Adrian Chadd wrote: > On Thu, Mar 28, 2002, Grahame Bowland wrote: > > [snip] > > > o spread an ill-designed, poorly-scaling and not-so-stable > > operating system. yay! [0] > > > ones in the corridor are M68K based. They're not likely to have a > > Memory Management Unit and that means you can't have seperate kernel / > > userland memory maps or enforse memory boundries between processes. > > Uhm, which m68k? :) I remember I looked it up once in my pre-cynic days and discovered those particular macs don't have an MMU. But by all means look it up :) > > [0] I'll pay that this is flamebait. However, just looking at graphs > > at performance between 2.2 and 2.4 and quite a bit of experience > > doing Linux admin stuff makes me actually believe this. It doesn't > > make me believe that anything else is necessarily better though :) > > Yay. Finally, I find someone who agrees with me! > Adrian, already a unix cynic The thing I love most about Unix is nice, plain text configuration files. And a nice clean division between state and configuration. These are the things that make it Good. Plain text config because you can see what is set up. Division of state because you can nuke the state containing files and get things back to a useful start-point. The actual syscalls and things like that aren't that nice. A lot of things just seem far too painful or have been left out entirely. For example to watch a directory for events (such as a new file being created), or to watch a file for modification takes OS-specific hacks like inodemon. It's absolutely trivial in BeOS I'm sure :) The list is quite long: async I/O, nice easy IPC/RPC, ... Not all of these are functions of the core "kernel" but the way Linux is implemented a lot of kernel support would be necessary. And anyway UNIX refers to the entire environment. If Unix was better, squid could be portable and not spend all of its time in a select() loop *grin* -- "At a risk of being called sexist, ageist and French, if you put multimedia, a leather skirt and lipstick on a grandmother and take her to a nightclub, she's still not going to get lucky." - JLG on Windows From ian at mckellar.org Fri Mar 29 06:17:07 2002 From: ian at mckellar.org (Ian McKellar) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:40 2004 Subject: [tech] A project idea... In-Reply-To: <20020328125612.GA1396@sigaba> References: <1017315186.1315.18.camel@Epoch> <20020328125612.GA1396@sigaba> Message-ID: <1017353827.4815.433.camel@mouse.danger.com> On Thu, 2002-03-28 at 04:56, Grahame Bowland wrote: > Dude, I think you're going to need a MMU on those processors. You > won't have protected memory and Linux is a protected memory operating > system. No! Remember ucLinux, the port of Linux to architectures without an MMU. Including 68k. Of course the biggest problem will be getting hardware specs on those things I suspect. http://www.uclinux.org/ Ian [for the record, I do think its a dumb idea, and I don't run Linux on my Mac. I don't even run OS X because I think its slow, bloated, a bad MacOS, a worse UNIX and it doesn't run any of the software I use under OS 9] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://lists.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au/pipermail/tech/attachments/20020328/7f79410f/attachment.pgp From acolyte at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Fri Mar 29 10:03:29 2002 From: acolyte at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Andrew Bailey) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:40 2004 Subject: [tech] A project idea... In-Reply-To: <20020328145550.GB6286@sigaba> References: <1017315186.1315.18.camel@Epoch> <20020328125612.GA1396@sigaba> <1017324006.1315.24.camel@Epoch> <20020328221814.B109589@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020328144458.GA6181@sigaba> <20020328224747.F94458@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020328145550.GB6286@sigaba> Message-ID: <20020329100329.F83725@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> On Thu, Mar 28, 2002 at 10:55:50PM +0800, Grahame Bowland wrote: > > The thing I love most about Unix is nice, plain text configuration > files. And a nice clean division between state and configuration. These > are the things that make it Good. Plain text config because you can > see what is set up. Division of state because you can nuke the state > containing files and get things back to a useful start-point. > The thing I hate about linux, is that these nice plain text configuration files are put in random places ( well not quite random, they're usually under /etc somewhere :P ) depending on the distro or version of the distro. Also versioning sucks , ( APIs are depend not so much on distro version, but rather what software is installed ). Its like they want to make it hard for people to deliver quality software. Andrew. -- "The hot dog eating contest is not only a beautiful display of athleticism, it is a fundamental way for citizens of all nations to display patriotism," - Wayne Norbitz From ian at mckellar.org Fri Mar 29 10:16:55 2002 From: ian at mckellar.org (Ian McKellar) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:41 2004 Subject: [tech] A project idea... In-Reply-To: <20020329100329.F83725@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> References: <1017315186.1315.18.camel@Epoch> <20020328125612.GA1396@sigaba> <1017324006.1315.24.camel@Epoch> <20020328221814.B109589@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020328144458.GA6181@sigaba> <20020328224747.F94458@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20020328145550.GB6286@sigaba> <20020329100329.F83725@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <1017368215.4815.681.camel@mouse.danger.com> On Thu, 2002-03-28 at 18:03, Andrew Bailey wrote: > On Thu, Mar 28, 2002 at 10:55:50PM +0800, Grahame Bowland wrote: > > > > The thing I love most about Unix is nice, plain text configuration > > files. And a nice clean division between state and configuration. These > > are the things that make it Good. Plain text config because you can > > see what is set up. Division of state because you can nuke the state > > containing files and get things back to a useful start-point. > > > > The thing I hate about linux, is that these nice plain text configuration > files are put in random places ( well not quite random, they're usually > under /etc somewhere :P ) depending on the distro or version of the > distro. Also versioning sucks , ( APIs are depend not so much on distro > version, but rather what software is installed ). Its like they want to > make it hard for people to deliver quality software. This is why you need to just support a particular distro. Supporting RedHat 7.2 is should be as easy as supporting Solaris 8 or Windows NT 4. In terms of API versioning we have the wonderful invention called soname in unix where you can make dynamic linking fail when an API changes. This combined with package dependancies should ensure that your users have the correct APIs installed. I've never really used any other platform to know if theres and equivalent of soname elsewhere. Ian [in a unix nightmare right now] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://lists.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au/pipermail/tech/attachments/20020328/f870996f/attachment.pgp From davyd at iprimus.com.au Sat Mar 30 12:44:05 2002 From: davyd at iprimus.com.au (proXy) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:42 2004 Subject: [tech] ISA IDE Card Message-ID: <1017463446.1321.4.camel@Epoch> Does anyone have one? Suitable for a 486? --proXy (aka davYd) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au/pipermail/tech/attachments/20020330/854c34cc/attachment.html From fryers at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Sun Mar 31 06:08:06 2002 From: fryers at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Simon Fryer) Date: Wed Oct 27 01:24:42 2004 Subject: [tech] ISA IDE Card In-Reply-To: <1017463446.1321.4.camel@Epoch> References: <1017463446.1321.4.camel@Epoch> Message-ID: <20020331060805.R53046@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Bingle > A while ago proXy tapped: > Does anyone have one? > Suitable for a 486? Yes. Yes. Does it need to actually work? See Ya Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh